Fruits of Ecumenism (No, Really!)
January 29, 2008 by ken88
The Clergy Conference of the Assyrian Catholic Apostolic Diocese (ACAD) met in Dublin, California, to discuss the current situation and consider future plans for reestablishing communion with other Christians, in order to end their ecclesial isolation.
After praying to the Father and reflecting on the Scriptures and Tradition, the attendees unanimously adopted a “Declaration of Intention” in which they state their resolution “to enter full communion with the Catholic Church” and “to resume church unity with the Chaldean Catholic Church.” As a result, they foresee that this declaration will initiate a process of negotiation with respective Church authorities to define a concrete model of this union, in which the particularity of our apostolic tradition is preserved. (Read the Rest)
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I have always fully supported Ecumenism with Ancient, Apostolic Churches. (Orthodox, Coptic, Ethiopian, etc…). Reunion is a good thing to be prayed for.
Recently on Staten Island the Coptic Orthodox purchased an old Masonic Hall right down the road from my house, and made a truly nice new Church. The Egyptian Christians I have met have been wonderful, devout people. Some of the women have tattoos of crosses on their wrists, which seems kind of nervy in a Muslim dominated country.
Pictures of Coptic Liturgy:
I love the Copts!
If they are in union with Rome, looks like a parish I’d join. This is beautiful and holy and head and shoulders above most masses I’ve been to in like…my whole life. I thank God for the Mass but I pray for this sort of reverence. Amen+
The ones by my house are Orthodox (as are most Copts), but I do believe that some are in union with Rome already.
Of course I’m all for that kind of ecumenism as well.
One maddening thing, though, is the double standard church liberals seem to apply to the East. If it’s traditional and orthodox but Western they hate and make fun of it but ooh, if it’s Eastern it’s OK. My guesses are 1) they don’t know much about the Eastern churches (lots of Westerners don’t) and/or 2) they see the East as small and foreign and so are patronising - they don’t take the East seriously. An icon here, an epiklesis there, a deacon over there… whilst they question the scripture and the creeds and press women’s ordination and gay weddings. And they think the Eastern Orthodox are fooled/impressed?
ACAD is the former Californian diocese of the Assyrian (Nestorian) Church, whose patriarch, Mar Dinkha IV, lives in Chicago. Yes, a real Eastern church has its patriarchate in the US! Anyway, ACAD’s bishop, Mar Bawai Soro, steered that church towards union with Rome but apparently the patriarch baulked which is why Mar Bawai is now out.
His group trying to join the Chaldean Catholic Church makes sense. BTW the Chaldean Catholics are unique among Eastern-rite churches under Rome in that they outnumber their Nestorian parent church. They are Iraq’s biggest church.
Copts aren’t Eastern Orthodox (IIRC the world’s second biggest church, certainly the second biggest ancient, apostolic, catholic one - Russians, Greeks, other Eastern Europeans and some Arabs) but Oriental Orthodox (the churches including Ethiopian, Armenian and Syrian including Indian - accused historically of being Monophysite which they probably aren’t). The standard rite of the Eastern Orthodox is the Byzantine Rite; the Oriental communion has several other, different rites. The Assyrian Rite is unique to that tradition.
I may be mistaken, but I believe that tattooing crosses on the wrists was a custom of the Crusaders so that when their bodies were found they would be given a Christian burial. If this origin is accurate, then that makes it even more “nervy” in territory dominated by Mohammedanism.
Of course I’m all for that kind of ecumenism as well.
One maddening thing, though, is the double standard church liberals seem to apply to the East. If it’s traditional and orthodox but Western they hate and make fun of it but ooh, if it’s Eastern it’s OK. My guesses are 1) they don’t know much about the Eastern churches (lots of Westerners don’t) and/or 2) they see the East as small and foreign and so are patronising - they don’t take the East seriously. An icon here, an epiklesis there, a deacon over there… whilst they question the scripture and the creeds and press women’s ordination and gay weddings. And they think the Eastern Orthodox are fooled/impressed?
ACAD is the former Californian diocese of the Assyrian (Nestorian) Church, whose patriarch, Mar Dinkha IV, lives in Chicago. Yes, a real Eastern church has its patriarchate in the US! Anyway, ACAD’s bishop, Mar Bawai Soro, steered that church towards union with Rome but apparently the patriarch baulked which is why Mar Bawai is now out.
His group trying to join the Chaldean Catholic Church makes sense. BTW the Chaldean Catholics are unique among Eastern-rite churches under Rome in that they outnumber their Nestorian parent church. They are Iraq’s biggest church.
Copts aren’t Eastern Orthodox (IIRC the world’s second biggest church, certainly the second biggest ancient, apostolic, catholic one - Russians, Greeks, other Eastern Europeans and some Arabs) but Oriental Orthodox (the churches including Ethiopian, Armenian and Syrian including Indian - accused historically of being Monophysite which they probably aren’t). The standard rite of the Eastern Orthodox is the Byzantine Rite; the Oriental communion has several other, different rites. The Assyrian Rite is unique to that tradition.
And they think the Eastern Orthodox are fooled/impressed?
Don’t worry. We aren’t.
ICXC
John
Thank you for the info Serge
As beautiful as those photos are, the ACAD liturgies are not the least bit conservative. Not only do they use altar girls, they dress them up in Roman cassocks and surplices.
http://www.kaldaya.net/2008/DailyNews/01/Jan29_08_A1.html
On the one hand I’ve been told that in the Middle East there’s some natural cultural crossover. Not only do Melkite and Greek Orthodox Arabs intercommune (the only division is the clergy don’t concelebrate) but an Eastern Christian with some Roman religious art is nothing special.
That said…
As I don’t know Arabic if you hadn’t told me this was ACAD I would have thought it was the Chaldean Catholics or the Maronite Church, the most Novus Ordo-fied of all the Eastern-rite churches under Rome (the priest celebrates facing the people).
[sarcasm]
Just what those churches need: more people who think latinisation proves their loyalty (which is the opposite of what Rome tells them to do!).
[/sarcasm]
P.S. I see not only pictures of the Sacred and Immaculate Hearts but Stations of the Cross - are you sure this isn’t a Chaldean Catholic church?
looks pretty close to our NO to me. Ugh!
I’m all for REAL ECUMENISM where the purpose is that Christian sects and other faiths recognize the true Church and convert.
aconservativeblogforpeace: You are absolutely correct; the photos that Michael referenced in comment No 9, are from the Chaldean Catholic Church. I went to the main page of that site and found the following:
http://www.marauraha.com/www/marauraha/stories/2008/
Looks like a different church - it’s bigger, there are no altar girls and the altar boys are vested differently.
But I see that Mar Bawai celebrated the Liturgy there.
I know mainstream Assyrians are very ecumenical, the only Eastern church with open Communion.
But if Mater Dolorosa’s link is to a Chaldean Catholic parish site it looks like in practice Mar Bawai has already gone over to Rome.
aconservativeblogforpeace wrote:
“Maronite Church, the most Novus Ordo-fied of all the Eastern-rite churches under Rome (the priest celebrates facing the people)”
This is a unfair and almost slanderous statement.
Prior to Vatican II, the Maronite Rite was very “latinized” but one should strive to understand the geographic and historic reasons behind this. Since Vat II the Maronites have had their own liturgical reform– a TRUE restoration of the rite. Not ALL Maronite Rite clergy face the people. There is an increasing trend toward ad orientem services– Ramsho, Safro and Qurbono. (That’s Evening Prayer, Morning Prayer and Eucharist to you Latins or Vespers, Lauds and Mass to you Traddies)
Maronites have long been treated (along with all other Uniates) as second class catholics. Not much has really changed in practice. The Eastern Orthodox look down their noses at them as well.
I think we can make the distinction between two types of Latinization. The most obvious means adopting Latin practices because the Roman way was supposed to be more Catholic. But this wouldn’t explain the interesting “Latinizations” in the liturgy of the Armenian Apostolic Church, which borrowed heavily from the Roman Rite during the crusades. Even the Greeks have borrowed elements of the Roman Rite.
A Rite might Latinize itself simply because the Roman way of doing things is effective and appealing. Or, certain Roman elements could appear because of a close and intimate relationship with the Pope. This is healthy. In fact, it’s probably a good thing that as the Maronite Rite developed, priests and bishops looked to Rome for ideas rather than their heretical neighbors.
For this reason, I think it would be wrong to condemn all forms of Latinization. When cultures come into contact with each other, there is going to be an exchange, and this isn’t necessarily a bad thing. When we encourage Eastern Catholics to return to the liturgical traditions of their parallel schismatic churches, we’re making the assumption that their liturgies would be just as they are today if they had remained in communion with Rome. It’s said, for example, that the East has no tradition of saying daily Mass, and that therefore, Eastern Catholics shouldn’t. But it’s also true that the “East” has been out of communion with the Church for a thousand years, and that had they remained in communion with the Church, such a practice might have developed. The same can be said for statues, side altars, kneeling, etc.
The cross tatoos on the wrist were to help prevent the kidnapping of Christians… And from their if they were found murdered the tattoo would show they were Christians.
It isn’t a ballsy “fashion statement”… It was born out of necessity.
“And they think the Eastern Orthodox are fooled/impressed?”
“Don’t worry. We aren’t.”
Kinda cuts both ways. The small über-vostochnik Orthodox parishes in this large city have managed to split several times over into smaller über-vostochnik parishes. They have all the bells and whistles, robes, gold & incense, beards & babushki…
We aren’t all that impressed either. But just for good measure, we never had Sacred Heart paintings or Marian statues…
I attended a Chaldean liturgy yesterday, and it had the worst of the Novus Ordo innovations. Hopefully, the accession of Mar Bawai and his followers will cause the Chaldeans to re-evaluate their Novus Ordoisms.
John R.,
Yeah, that does seem to be happening with the Eastern Rites. They want a “renewal” (disaster) for their rite too. Busy-body-ism.
However, I have visited a Maronite monastery in Ma. a few years ago that had a really very beautiful, and solemn liturgy, despite some degree of “modernizing”. The monks I spoke to there were very supportive of the Traditional Roman Rite, and only 1 was Lebanese. The rest were all Euro-Westerners, who seemed to switch rites due to the lack of solemnity in the Roman rite. Their website: http://www.maronitemonks.org/